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PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 11:52 am  
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Mortehl wrote:
Essar that was the first example of a regularly occurring attack of doom I could think of.


Yeah, but then I could mention AMS as well.

Btw, my gut feel is that tanking in WTLK is going to have two features:

- Lots (all?) multi-tank encounters. I think SWP is an indication of what is coming. Wouldn't surprise me to not even see a two tank encounter again. I think they are going to go with 4-5 tank designs almost completely.

- More KT Pyro/Illidan Shear like abilities, possibly not quite as severe but as a regular feature. All the tanks (except Druids?) now have a 30-1 min spammable ability the reduces damage (Shield blocks of various sorts and Icebound Fortitude/AMS) so making those key to successful tanking means tanks can't just "spam sunder and shield block." I believe this is Blizzard's replacement for Crushing blows.



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 12:56 pm  
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Durl wrote:
A couple other changes.

Blood Frenzy was moved up 2 tiers, which is absolutely retarded and still doesn't allow fury warriors to bring anything useful to a raid and forces BF builds to use the horrible slam rotation.

Deep Wounds was also swapped to not be a prerequisite for Impale, so PVP warriors can opt not to pick up an uncontrollable bleed.


I'd think that it'd be more for fury's benefit, since they crit so often that deep wounds constantly gets reapplied and never ticks that often.

Personally, deep wounds makes up ~12% of my overall pvp damage. I'd be silly not to take it :p


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 12:57 pm  
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Interesting to follow up on Essar's "most will be multi-target" theory:

Naxx is going to be reused, of course they are going to change a few things, but I think we're bound to see a lot of stuff re-used. For one, Naxx is huge, with 14 boss encounters. That seems pretty big for a "entry level" raid instance, so I wouldn't be surprised if some of the bosses got cut. Anyways, to my point.

In the Naxx 1.0, a lot of the bosses were multi-tank:

Spider Wing

Anub'Rekhan - 1 mt, 2ot
Grand Widow Faerlina - 1 mt, several ots
Maexxna - Mostly 1 tank fight
Patchwerk - The original tank eliminator!! 1 MT, others for Hateful strikes
Grobbulus - Single tank
Gluth - Single tank
Thaddius - 2 tanks to start, 1 tank to finish
Noth the Plaguebringer - 1 MT, many adds throughout the fight
Heigan the Unclean - Single tank
Loatheb - Healbot
Instructor Razuvious - Multi-tank
Gothik the Harvester - Many adds needing tanked
The Four Horsemen - 5 tanks... or more...
Sapphiron - Single tank
Kel'Thuzad - Many tanks.



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 1:20 pm  
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Setzar wrote:
Interesting to follow up on Essar's "most will be multi-target" theory:

Naxx is going to be reused, of course they are going to change a few things, but I think we're bound to see a lot of stuff re-used. For one, Naxx is huge, with 14 boss encounters. That seems pretty big for a "entry level" raid instance, so I wouldn't be surprised if some of the bosses got cut. Anyways, to my point.


My guess is that they will increase the add count in the few single tank fights and let's face it - revamping something like Grobbulus won't make anyone cry...You could give Patchwerk a sabrelash type attack requiring at least 3 tanks, etc.

I think they will use Naxx's 14 bosses to ramp up the difficulty. So you might have 2 easy wings, 2 medium wings, then 4horseman, saphiron and KT being "hard." Provides an introduction to raiding with a smooth learning curve.



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 2:48 pm  
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Quote:
Shield Block now increases chance to block and amount blocked by 100% for 5 seconds. Cooldown increased to 30 seconds.



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 10:24 am  
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Interesting post...

Quote:
Tanking Design

Our goal in Lich King is for all 4 tanking classes to be viable.
We would like for tanking to be a little more fun. I'm going to leave this vague on purpose, but it is definitely a concern.
In 5-player instances, most warriors, druids, paladins and death knights should be effective tanks. The healing specs may have a harder time than the dps specs. Arms wariors, Fury warriors, Ret paladins, Ferals and most DKs should do fine.
In 5-player heroics, the expectation is that the tank has a heavy investment in tanking talents and appropriate gear. Arms warriors might have trouble tanking a heroic unless they overgear the instance.
For raids, we want all 4 tank classes to be viable. If your group has e.g. a Prot paladin and Feral druid as main tanks with appropriate gear and reasonable skill, you should be good to go.
This is a shift in philosophy for us. Previously, we sometimes tried to steer Ferals as being better off tanks than main tanks. We also expected specific classes to appear in the raid. Our new assumption is that you might have any of the 4 tanking classes as a tank. We are trying to achieve as much parity as we can among the 4 tanks without making them too similar. If nearly all guilds want the same class as their MT, we've failed.
This is a big one: the game isn't finished. We aren't spending too much effort yet to make sure mitigation, threat and tools are similar across the 4 classes at level 80 in blue or purple gear. Likewise, your talent trees and core abilities aren't finished. Tanking (and PvP) need to have a lot of other pieces of the game in place before we can really get the numbers right. It's fine (useful even) to point out when you feel a particular ability, talent, class or build is too good or not good enough. But please don't infer the work in progress as a reflection of our intent. If we end up changing our minds or if things don't work out, it will be posted here.
There are a lot of changes in Lich King that change tanking and raiding in general. I won't list them all out here, but keep in mind things like itemization changes, widespread raid buffs, consumables, UI changes, etc. Just keep them in mind. We're not in Tempest Keep anymore.

We would still like to have tanking "flavors" as you put it, but I want to be a little careful when I say that because some people have taken that to mean that their class won't be good enough to tank the content they want.

If druids had gigantic health pools but lower mitigation and avoidance than a warrior, that would be tanking flavor. It would mean you heal the bears a little different -- they might drain more mana, but the damage would be more predictable. In really long fights, the warrior might have an advantage. In a fight where a boss hit quickly for less damage per hit, the warrior might have an advantage. In fights with periods of really big damage, the druid might have an advantage. In magic fights where armor was less of a factor, the druid might have an advantage. This is just an example. Our overriding concern is making sure the tanks have the tools, threat and mitigation they need to tank. A secondary concern is making sure they don't feel too similar.



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 10:25 am  
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Quote:
Feral concerns in WotLK
We're not done with Ferals. The builds you get are often a week or more behind ours, and that assumes that a designer actually went in and made changes. It's impossible for us to balance the threat and mitigation of the 4 tanking classes until we can take a look at the level 80 characters, wearing raid-level gear, and fighting a raid-level encounter. None of that content is done yet.

I said above that I think the old design of "You can't ever be a MT, but you get to be a terrific OT" feels dated. But in order to be a MT as good as a paladin or warrior, you can't also dps as well as a Fury warrior with the same spec. I don't think anyone is asking for that, but realistically the only way to address is it with talents. (And before someone asks, if you like the OT role, you can still do that too.)

I'm fine bouncing between druid, warrior, paladin and death knight forums posting "You will be able to MT Ulduar without gimping your raid" every few days if that's what it takes. (Source)

Those statements aren't mutually exclusive. A druid can be a better MT on some fights and a warrior a better MT on some fights without the fight being impossible for the other class. I can't promise that each raid will have an equal number of fights that benefits one tank over the other, and ultimately it shouldn't really matter. If your guild has a bear and prot paladin as your 2 MTs for LK raiding, you are good to go. At no point will you stop and say, "Gee if we only had a warrior MT, we would have beaten that boss by now."

The comments on "niche" are more to address concerns that the 4 classes have to be carbon copies of each other. Warriors, like other tank classes, are worried that with all of the changes, their role will somehow be eliminated. I am trying to reassure you all that that is not the case. I think we can have say druids have larger stamina pools and warriors have more mitigation without making one of them the tank that 90% of raids run with. (Source)



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 10:28 am  
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Quote:
Warrior (Skills List / Talent Calc. (8770))
Raid Wide Battle Shout
The plan is for for Battle Shot to go raid wide. A lot of buffs will be going raid wide. (Source)

Protection Spec and DPS
We think we can make the Prot tree more fun. Without talents like Defiance, there are already a few less mandatory talents, and we think we can make even more interesting choices. We definitely can improve Prot dps, so that it doesn't feel so painful to go do dailies or run a 5-man in a dps role. (Source)



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 10:29 am  
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Uthadys wrote:
Durl wrote:
A couple other changes.

Blood Frenzy was moved up 2 tiers, which is absolutely retarded and still doesn't allow fury warriors to bring anything useful to a raid and forces BF builds to use the horrible slam rotation.

Deep Wounds was also swapped to not be a prerequisite for Impale, so PVP warriors can opt not to pick up an uncontrollable bleed.


I'd think that it'd be more for fury's benefit, since they crit so often that deep wounds constantly gets reapplied and never ticks that often.

Personally, deep wounds makes up ~12% of my overall pvp damage. I'd be silly not to take it :p


Well they buffed and nerfed Deep Wounds by reducing the duration to 6 seconds and having it tick every second. Its more damage faster in PVE but a shorter bleed in PVP. But ticking every second, a fury warrior wouldn't miss nearly as much DW damage.



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 10:43 am  
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I am really looking forward to tanking in Wrath at this point. Barring some enormous screw-up by the developers, being a tank is going to be more then one dimensional while still retaining the responsibility the job brings.



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 11:23 am  
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Quote:
Battle and Berserker Stance now have passive 20% threat reduction. yum.



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 12:14 pm  
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essarhaddon wrote:
Quote:
Battle and Berserker Stance now have passive 20% threat reduction. yum.


Sweet.



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 8:36 am  
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Quote:
Warrior (Skills List / Talent Calc. (8781))
1) Heroic leap and Bladestorm are very awkward to use, especially in PVP, nigh unusable right now. Are there plans to make these stronger, or at least more user friendly?
Totally. We like the basic talents, so the rest is just getting the tuning right and fixing all the bugs. Heroic Leap will probably be trickier just because it has to handle physics and obstructions. (Source)

2) Titan's Grip is mathematically pretty terrible right now and severely devalues attack power for a fury warrior using it. It does almost universally less DPS than a one handed weapon fury build.
The design is for Titan's Grip to be a dps increase. It's easy to make it too much of an increase, and we may be being too cautious with the numbers at the moment. But when we talk about Lich King, we are assuming most Fury warriors are using two-handers. It's not supposed to be hard decision. (Source)

3) Most talents beyond Tier 3 in arms are staggeringly bad for PVE right now, with the exception of blood frenzy. Is this intended to balance blood frenzy? Will we see any improvements here? Do you intend to go the route of feral with arms and build multiple effects onto talents to give them PVP/PVE usefulness the way feral gets DPS/tanking talents?
Given plenty of time, we would love to sprinkle PvP, PvE and tanking talents all throughout the trees. There are definitely some lame talents at the moment (some old, some new), and we are going to try to get to them all. Blood Frenzy itself is going to be on the back-burner until we resolve how we're going to handle raid stacking. It isn't the intention that Arms gets to raid and Fury goes home.

4) The changes to windfury and sword specialization have destroyed the slam rotation for arms in terms of DPS viability. Arms warriors simply don't have the rage for a full rotation without them, even specing to endless rage and anger management. We're in a very similar state now to ret paladins live, enough or close to enough skills to provide powerful damage output but hamstrung by resource limitations, are there any plans to fix that? Judgments of the wise was a brilliant fix, any chance we could see something similar in arms to improve PVE DPS?
Slam is intended to be an attractive button. I think it just needs a little attention now that the extra attacks are under control now. (Source)

5) Fury's top end talents ignore PVE DPS almost entirely in their current form, TG while cool is a spec for burst over sustained damage and has the same rage issues that arms does only more severe with reduced attack speed and increased miss chance. Heroic leap does very little damage and the stun effect is not useful in dungeon or raid settings so its almost exclusively a PVP talent (its targeting issues not withstanding). Bloodsurge and Furious Resolve are workable but the other new talents don't add a lot to fury and quite honestly you'll likely see fury raiders as 16/47/8 or something similar, keeping their exact old build plus bloodsurge or furious resolve, taking advantage of the better impale/deep wounds placements and grabbing improved bloodrage, tactical mastery, and Incite out of prot. Is that intended? Do the devs thing fury was in a good spot in TBC? Do they think we need a step up? or a step down?
There were certainly Fury warriors doing fine dps in BC, but that might have been in spite of and not because of the tree. I don't think anyone here would disagree with your analysis. We're working on the talents. The feedback from the warrior community, while occasionally (and sometimes understandably) bitter, has been helpful. (Source)

I think a 20% down to 0% haste penalty for TG will make it a stellar talent at high end gear with better returns coming from one handers until a fair bit of hit rating and haste are acquired to smooth out the rage, 21/50/0 seems like a good raid build with that change, maxing out TG and picking up impale/deep wounds and 2 hander spec out of arms.
It's still a little odd that 1 talent point gets you the dual-wielding and the others just improve it, but maybe that's workable. We'll know soon enough. We love the idea of the talent though. It is one of those that gets noticed a lot by someone just coming to LK. (Source)

6) you've mentioned balancing blood frenzy in arms against the personal DPS of fury. Have you considered adding a buff of similar magnitude to deep fury? Something like 3% crit or haste added to battle shout, or similar? Such that you could equalize the personal DPS potential of the two trees without making arms warriors clearly superior in raids.
Yes. We wanted to make Arms as attractive as Fury for raids, but we probably tipped the scales too far. We're currently discussing whether it's okay for any class or spec to bring no real synergy to a group other than mad dps. But granting buffs to traditional high dps classes might also mean their dps needs to come down a little in proportion to everyone else. (Source)

7) Can we add prot's passive expertise talent back on incite to help out DPS warriors even more by letting them pick up some expertise for a minor prot splash? (sorry, I have to bring up the expertise in every thread, it being gone really bothers me)
We weren't trying to screw anyone out of Expertise by removing Defiance. It was intended to just be a buff. We'll see if we can work Expertise back in somewhere. (Source)

Death Knight (Skills List / Talent Calc. (8781))
Chains of Ice Diminishing Returns in PvP
It's a bug. It should not diminish. (Source)

Death Coil and Frost Strike Runic Power cost changes
Death Coil and Frost Strike are 40 runic power again. I hoped that would make it into this build.

We're still not sure if runic power generation is too high or not, but ultimately 40 is just a better number. Since you often do 5 abilities before using all your runes, that leaves you with 50 RP. If every Death Coil drained that, you are kind of static. With a 40 cost, you build up a little more RP over time so the Death Coils come at different moments. (Source)



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:06 am  
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Quote:
Feral Tanking in WotLK
Nobody can really compare a level 80 prot warrior to a level 80 feral druid because those individuals don't exist yet. Therefore, we have made almost no attempt to compare their tanking stats except to say "Man, bears could probably use something like Last Stand and something like Thunder Clap" and "Hey, let's make sure bears don't have to scrounge for rare +defense leather or even +resilience in order to be uncrittable." That work is coming.

Bears are able to tank some end-game content even on Live, so I don't think they are orders of magnitude behind warriors. In situations where they struggle, it is sometimes because of crushing blows or mechanics introduced specifically to drive warriors to tank, Shear for instance. I'm going to be tanking Ulduar on my bear, so I'll be the first to complain if I feel the class design isn't up to it.

As far as the previous poster who likes the Feral as the tank / dps hybrid, I don't think anything we're doing will really hurt that. You may be 5-10 talent points behind a tank-focused Feral or a dps-focused Feral but if you liked OTing the bear boss in ZA and then dps'ing on the eagle boss, you should still be great at doing that. The difference is the bear who does spend those talents on threat, mitigation and oh snap abilities instead of +Shred can actually be a raid's primary main tank.

One of the best rogues I know occasionally raided in blue gear or with no talent spec just to remind everyone that player skill often has a much bigger impact on your contribution to a raid than anything else. I know it's easy for anyone to drag out antecdotes that nobody else can validate, but it's worth keeping in mind.

Now I am imagining the "GC said you don't need talents or gear to tank, so obviously X class isn't going to get any!" quotes. 1) Not true. 2) Sigh. (Source)

Warrior (Skills List / Talent Calc. (8788))
Overpower in PvE
I can't recall if I mentioned this, but one thing that comes up a lot is letting Arms get better use out of Overpower in PvE. No promises, but I wouldn't at all be surprised to see something like this. (Source)

Tanking multiple targets in WotLK
Shockwave is a cool ability, but if it is the ultimate AE tanking ability, that isn't really going to let dps warriors tank Utgarde. I also know plenty of warriors and bears that can get a large pull to stick them like glue even today. But it takes a lot of tab-targeting and a lot of skill. Skill is always going to be a component of tanking, but since you can't always gauge the skill of someone you don't know, we'd rather give everyone good tools to tank a 5-player run. (Source)



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 9:14 am  
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Quote:
Druid (Skills List / Talent Calc. (8788))
Armor in Wrath of the Lich King
Armor is one of the most important stats a tank can have. We aren't trying to keep bears from getting it.

The change to itemization was done solely to avoid having so much diversity in the items we could drop. It's lame when you're leveling up to keep seeing quest rewards that are itemized for your spec (which TBH is still a problem we haven't solved for Feral weapons and idols). It's lame when your raid kills a boss and he drops say elemental mail, healing leather, and a spellpower mace, none of which your group can use. Having bears, cats and rogues all desire the same leather drops isn't a panacea -- it helps some problems, but it creates others. Having bears run around with as much armor as a rogue would be a big, big problem.

Fortunately there are plenty of ways to give bears the armor they need -- through talents (like the crit resistance one) or through Dire Bear form itself for example. Even if another tanking class ends up having slightly more armor than a druid, the differences should be so minor that neither of you is at a significant disadvantage on a boss.

I am glad someone mentioned the hunter example. I am really hoping you guys have the same reaction when you see the next pass on druid talents. (Source)


So no more super armor druids, makes up for other new tanking stuff I suppose.



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