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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 12:24 pm  
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Well, there will be high-armored druids, but I think the point of the post was that it wouldn't necessarily come through artificially boosted armor items, but rather from things like larger armor multipliers and talent tweaks.

What I don't understand is the comment about "Even if another tanking class ends up having slightly more armor than a druid, the differences should be so minor that neither of you is at a significant disadvantage on a boss." Pally/warrior can still parry/block, and I assume even a 2-H tanking Death Knight can parry. If one of those classes ends up with "slightly" more armor than a druid...what's the catch? Will the druids end up having that much more HP to have more resulting EHP?



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 1:20 pm  
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I don't really see the difference. Warriors currently have the highest theoretical damage reduction anyway.



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 10:06 am  
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Quote:
Bear Form armor compensation
Bears need to be compensated for less bonus armor on leather and lack of parry and block. Period. We haven't added those talents or bonuses or whatever they are going to end up being yet because the game isn't in a state where we could say e.g. what amount of armor a L80 tank needs to handle Patchwerk. Pointing out where you think bears (or any class) fall short in mitigation (or any aspect of tanking) is helpful. This is a beta though, and there is going to be a lot of iteration until we're happy with everything. (Source)


So more druid changes inc it seems.



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:26 am  
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Quote:
Tanking in Wrath of the Lich King
We *will* give you the tools to do it. We just might not give you those tools the same way another class gets them. There are no two-handed tanking weapons, yet I suspect 50% or more of DKs will use two-handed weapons. Neither DKs nor druids have shields. Druids need defense less than other tanks because they can achieve crit immunity. We can do something similar for your damage reduction (bake it into bear form, or put it in a talent are two obvious choices). Now, when you get your leather though, we are assuming you gem and enchant it as a tank would.

I'm sorry we are neglecting paladins on the forums. None of the tanking trees are very far along yet, and ironically the DK ones are probably the most stable. The paladin ones may be the least stable since the class changed so much, so it's hard to offer a lot of comment on specific talents right now. I mention druids a lot because we are talking a lot about them right now. The Arms and Fury warriors recently got some really nice work done on them, so hopefully Prot will follow. (But again I stress we won't know if the talent trees offer all of the threat, mitigation, survivability and tools they need to until we compare endgame tanking more.)

As far as what the Prot warrior brings to a raid, it is true that all tanks bring some ammount of target debuffing. But more importantly, we are in the middle of a pretty big analysis of raid buffs and debuffs. It is a large enough topic that we probably shouldn't muddle up this thread too much of that discussion, but in brief:

The overall goal is that you should want to bring raiders because they are your friends or because they are very good players, not because their buff is so awesome that you can't live without it. We would like you to be able to get all of the big buffs and still have some remaining slots that you can fill how you want (you know assuming you have enough healers and CC or whatever). We would like to get things to where no single spec always justifies a raid spot because their buff is impossible to replace or live without. (Source)

Tanking in Wrath of the Lich King and Itemization
No class should need an awesome set of tank gear for a L76 dungeon. Once you get close to 80 and start to talk about heroics, then you absolutely need some good blue tanking gear, and that kind of stuff is available as drops and quest rewards.

Our early tests suggest DK mitigation, avoidance and health aren't far below other tanks (assuming those tanks are using similar gear and aren't coming in with Sunwell epics). Their avoidance tends to be a little higher and stamina a little lower, but not significantly (and I should stress that these are very preliminary tests). It could be that the mobs just hit too hard.

One change we made recently is baking in the old bonus from Blessing of Salvation into tanking forms. Up until now you were pretty much just doing without the old Salv because there was no way to replace it, and many raiding guilds will tell you that buff is (was) mandatory. Now you get it for free.

That obviously won't help survival much, but it will affect threat enormously. (Source)



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:31 am  
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Quote:
Druid (Skills List / Talent Calc. (8788))
Feral Tanking and Itemization
I totally get this. Druids won't be popular tanks if everyone knows them as the OOM tank. When I say "big health pool" I'm not talking about 30% more than a warrior, and I'm not even sure that's the route we'll go. But since the "big health" idea generates a lot of discussion, I'll walk you through our thought process.

Druids are going to have a harder time hitting the armor cap in Lich King largely because there is no leather tanking gear, and virtually no bonus armor at all (except on a few pieces like rings and necks). Now we can't just make druids do without armor, or they won't compete with other tanks. We can't just bake the armor into Dire Bear Form though, or we risk making resto druids even better in PvP. So when I have mentioned big health pools, that is partially because we're trying to solve the problem where druids need armor but can't get it. Big health is a way to do with less armor, but it's not a total fix for the situation, it definitely has drawbacks, and it doesn't mean 30% more health and 30% less armor. If I had to guess, all of the tanks will end up having pretty similar endgame stats, minus obvious things like block.

Keep in mind how good a well-geared druid tank would be in live if we hadn't added Sunwell Radiance. It is surprisingly easy to make bears too good or not good enough. We have to tread carefully.

But we haven't changed the design of wanting bears to be able to MT. And that doesn't mean technically they can MT but all the healers complain and as soon as the warrior logs on, you eagerly swap him back in. MT means MT.



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 1:14 pm  
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Quote:
Tanking in Wrath of the Lich King (full version)
Better threat generation on non-tanking specs
[...] It might even be okay if non-tanking specs can generate a lot of threat (heck, hunters do it), so long as they also don't have high mitigation.

Past issues with Protection warriors
[...] The best we can offer is flexibility so that you can pick up all the passive mitigation talents and someone else can try out a different build. The problem with Prot before, I'd argue, is that there weren't enough choices to go around so that by the time you got the bare minimum, the options left were pretty paltry.

Class diversity in raid
That is pretty much the point. No class brings anything so unique that you want them to come at the expense of others. You should earn your raid spot because you know how to tank and have some decent gear and a guild who can back you up. Maybe you're a great leader or maybe you don't argue. Maybe you've got a great sense of humor or are a good guild recruiter. All of those are better reasons to get into a group IMHO than because your buff is a unique snowflake. Quite honestly I'd rather raid with my friends than some jerk who has the perfect buff. And I really don't want to send one of my friends off to reroll a level 1 dude because we both happened to choose rogues at first level six months ago and now our group is suffering for want of a buff. If you can tank, you'll get into raids.

Prot Warrior versus Paladin Tanking
The Prot warrior should also be able to switch to dps, and they come with Battle Shout and Commanding Shout, two very solid buffs. [...] If the paladin is so much better at AE that you take him instead of a warrior, then we have a problem.

Death Knights tuned raid encounters
Again, the "best Magic boss" shouldn't be to the extent that you call the raid when she can't come. There will be no fights tailored to a particular class. Sorry. Believe me, we don't have to come up with a gimmick to encourage death knight raiders. Northrend is infested with them already. Ghouls are cool though.

Balance between tanking classes
You Sunder, you Demo Shout, Battle Shout, Challenging Shout. You might Piercing Howl depending on the encounter. You Execute. You Intervene. See where I'm going...? If you are really winning or losing fights based on whether your tank can Innervate, then we've probably made the content too challenging. The difference in skill (or gear) between a potential warrior and druid tank should have a much bigger effect on the outcome.

The situations we've had before have been more like "The paladin can tank all of Heroic Shattered Halls with no CC" or "The druid can do nearly double your dps while tanking" or "The warrior can achieve passive crushing immunity and has the only ability that can handle Shear." Those are egregious barriers to having 4 viable tanking classes, which is why we're trying to fix them.



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 4:02 pm  
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Paladin:

TBC - Lightbringer Armor: http://www.wowhead.com/?itemset=679
WOTLK - Lightbringer Armor: http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?itemset=679

Warrior:

TBC - Onslaught Armor: http://www.wowhead.com/?itemset=673
WOTLK - Onslaught Armor: http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?itemset=673

Druid:

TBC - Thunderheart Harness: http://www.wowhead.com/?itemset=676
WOTLK - Thunderheart Harness: http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?itemset=676



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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 10:07 am  
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Boots/Belt/Bracer:

Image

Image

Image

Other:

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 10:29 am  
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So, overall, I've come to this conclusion:

Pre-WOTLK, paladins had to give up a significant part of our item budget for int (which we never wanted), and spell damage (which has been an unfortunate necessity). Warriors on the other hand, had nearly perfect itemization for current talents.

3.0/WOTLK, paladin main set gear benefits tremendously since we had all that item budget to return (int/spell) in order to get our strength. Warriors on the other hand had to rob Peter to pay Paul. There's a significant loss of stats and avoidance (most painfully the agility which I personally always envied warrior tanks for getting on their T6), while at least by my own humble calculations, they're not getting enough strength to compensate.

I'd advise warriors to pick up paladin off set pieces (boot/belt/bracer) if/when they drop.



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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 11:22 am  
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Not quite WTLK but relevant:

Quote:
In the patch where all your tanking gear changes, Sunwell Radiance is also being turned off.



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 11:41 am  
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Ghostcawler is awesome.

Ghostcrawler wrote:
We don't think the situation is cool where even mainstream but progress-oriented guilds have to keep 4 different tanks waiting in the lobby so that they can have "the best" tank for every fight. "Hey guys, do you think you're going to get the spider down in the next hour or two or should I put on another DVD here? Hey, did that tanking shield drop while I wasn't there? Guys?"

I think almost no matter what we do that some tanks are going to have an easier time on some bosses. To some extent we're cool with that. Where it breaks down is when the guild with the paladin MT and death knight OT hits boss #3 in Ulduar and they are at such a huge disadvantage that their only hope is through repeated wiping and just blind luck. The situation even breaks down when the Protadin can dance through a heroic with no CC while the warrior has to stop and mark everything and hope nobody Frost Bolts the sapped target.

As far as providing numbers feedback, it's a question of degree. I'll try and explain by example.

Very useful feedback:
"Hey, we did some math here and based on talents, gear and what we know about gems and enchants, it looks like paladins can't be uncrittable by Naxx. Is this intended?"

Less useful feedback:
"Warrior mitigation has been better than paladin mitigation for the last 4 patches. Why doesn't Blizzard fix that? I'm starting to think they won't."

Not terribly useful feedback:
"Because paladins can't be uncrittable by Naxx, it's clear Blizzard has no design for the class and doesn't understand how paladins work. We'll never get to tank anything. Meanwhile, warriors have the most awesome ability that we are denied out of spite."

Ghostcrawler fills the coffee mug with gin:
"I've waited for 16 months for a blue response to my demand for an explanation of why paladins don't work the way I think they should. And yet on my 35-page dissertation on why this one quest in Eastern Plaguelands would be so easy for my class if you made all of the 28 changes I require, and which I bump every day for great justice, I finally got a blue poster who made a poor attempt at humor and it Greatly Offended me. Now I'm going to troll and reroll because if I'm miserable I want everyone else to be too."



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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 5:38 pm  
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Ghostcrawler wrote:
We think defense was a little too easy to get in BC. Most tanks (warriors anyway) walked in Karazhan almost uncrittable in just heroic and quest reward gear. Those +defense gems might have well not existed. It just felt like defense ought to take a little bit of effort to max out (using the crit barrier as the limit -- I realize it continues paying dividends beyond that point).

Wer'e not sure yet how far we want to push it in the opposite direction though. It could be that the current numbers are too punitive and tanks will explode to Mr. Anub'arak.



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 5:52 pm  
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essarhaddon wrote:
Ghostcrawler wrote:
We think defense was a little too easy to get in BC. Most tanks (warriors anyway) walked in Karazhan almost uncrittable in just heroic and quest reward gear. Those +defense gems might have well not existed. It just felt like defense ought to take a little bit of effort to max out (using the crit barrier as the limit -- I realize it continues paying dividends beyond that point).

Wer'e not sure yet how far we want to push it in the opposite direction though. It could be that the current numbers are too punitive and tanks will explode to Mr. Anub'arak.


3 nights as a prot paladin worth of conservative effort and I was def capped. It was EASIER this time around.



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 1:57 am  
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at 70 on the ptr with my shield slam gear on & all procs going

hot

also yes I made my warrior look like my rogue keke


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 12:29 pm  
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Quote:
Ghost is out for the rest of the evening so I thought I would make a quick post regarding a new warrior change. Berserker Rage will now be usable in all stances.



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