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 Post subject: Healing Priests
PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 9:15 am  
Joined: Tue Jan 02, 2007 11:02 pm
Posts: 10586
Location: 7th circle of know...
Character: Essarhaddon
Offline ... ssion/p82/

Interesting discussion, pasted here for Fwam and others.

Originally Posted by Kortar
You keep making this same mistake. You cannot talk about both overhealing and maximum throughput because they are inherently contradictory concepts. It's like claiming that triangles don't have a 180 degree sum of angles in Euclidean geometry because lines can't really be parallel. Well, if you don't assert that lines can be parallel, then you're not talking about Euclidean geometry.

Ultimately, all you're doing is applying arbitrary weights to your numbers.

Also, keep in mind that while the "shields can't overheal" meme works well for certain concepts (e.g. Rapture mana return), it falls apart when you're talking about multi-healer environments since your "0% overheal" comes at the expense of other heals that will overheal more. Essentially you're "stealing" the low overheal from someone else, so its not really a net gain.

These are imaginary concepts. Shields do not increase overhealing of other healers any more than incoming heals do. In fact shields are far better, because a PWS landing on someone at half health allows another incoming heal to be effective and the shield is still there. There is absoludely zero justification at claiming that shields increase overheal none whatsoever. If anything its the opposite, since shields do not heal per se and smooth out incoming dmg instead of increasing spikeyness.

Any value that uses 0.5 for crit does not belong in any serious theorycrafting. Whatever calculations you make with 0.5 are immediately invalidated the instant you have overheal because crit downgrades much faster than linear with overheal. In order to get max HPS values that have at least some relevance to the real world the value you need for crit is 0.3. If you want to calculate max HPS with assumed 0 overheal and 0.5% per crit you can do so ofc, but your values mean absoludely nothing and you can draw no conclusions from them whatsoever. Its just an exercise in arithmetics. If you want to calculate a value that can be roughly scaled back to a real situation when you add overheal into the equation the only acceptable number is 0.3. Its not a matter of oppinion of perspective but a simple matter of fact and as such arguing about it is pointless.


Const: Although it may seem counterintuitive you make a NEGATIVE gain on CoH and PoM by not going all the way up the tree to divine providence. What you are looking for is HPM and because of all the stacking factors DP gives you a better return on HPM per point than mental agi. The only gain you ever make from mental agi right now is on renew. If you use renew heavily mental agi may give you a positive return but otherwise if it does you should be able to modify tactics and do exactly the same thing without mental agi.


Let 's presume we have 880 mp5 from Spirit (~1k each Spirit/Int) with the same numbers as above. Each time you proc clearcasting, you save the cost of our Greater Heal (1051) plus get 2.5s of FSR (880 * (100% - 30%) * (2.5 / 5) = 308), for a net 'gain' of 1359 mana. At various levels of critical, this translates into a percentage mana savings per point of:
10% = 1.72%
15% = 2.58%
20% = 3.44%
25% = 4.30%
30% = 5.16%

You also have to consider that throwing lots of little heals is inherently better than throwing a small number of large heals if all else is equal because you can fine-tune your overhealing more and switch targets more often.

Most of the commentary from beta has been precisely the opposite: that mana is the key issue, not the size of heals. If, in fact, size of heals is the key issue, then Discipline Priests are really pointless since they have no hope of coming even to close to matching what Holy Paladins do single-target.

Since blizzard said that they want empowered healing to remain the same you are probably right and it adds more spellpower instead of 40% of the bonus healing. This means that empowered healing is still 1% better per point compared to test of faith overall, especially since its gains get amplified by spiritual healing.

You have made a very big mistake on your clearcasting calculations. You are forgetting serendipity. Serendipity does not proc off HC gheals and it should proc on most gheals so you need to decrease the value of gheal by at least 200. The ooFSR time of 2.5 seconds becomes ~35% of the total mana gain, which by the way you need to sacrifice if you want to fully utilise the IHC throughput. More importantly you can gain more than 2.5 seconds per gheal due to the 2x 30% haste buff.

Who said that big heals are necessary for healing. As far as I can see big heals are going to be the most effective way to heal for holy priests . Big heals for serendipity and ooFSR time at lvl 70 raids with the new talent give me incredible mana return. If ppl at 80 are saying it does not work. I can't really argue about it, but I won't believe it for one second when ppl say I used a particular build for the entire raiding season, with a particular healing style and it worked. Just because something works it does not mean its the most efficient too.


The first major issue I have with this build is no Guardian Spirit. It's incredibly powerful. It's not only Nature's Swiftness in a different way (except even better -- as a 51 talent should be) but it can be used in other interesting ways. Long fight where you need regen? Pop GS on the tank, take 10 seconds off, make your next heal with IF, reap the benefits. That's not even counting the obvious uses such as the last 5% on a boss, etc. If I have 51+ points in Holy, I think it's a crime not to take GS.

My build has scrubbed the points in improved Renew. I use it sometimes but not enough to justify those 3 points over talents such as Surge of Light and Guardian Spirit. Talents such as IF, SoL, HC/IHC and GS allow us to be very clever with manipulating our healing to take advantage of OO5SR regen.

I've been running with this build for raiding on beta and it's served me pretty well. In a 25 man raid, I really want to have Holy Specialization maxed out. Odds are there will be a moonkin, and crit stacks so well with IHC/SoL/Inspiration. With both of those, my crit rate in raids is north of 22%, and that's just with a mishmash of Naxx-10/Heroic gear running around 2000 spellpower with Inner Fire up.

I agree with you about the guardian spirit being powerful, but we are talking about a build that specialises more in raid healing. If you look up a couple of pages you will see that I have already suggested multiple times that it should be possible to use GS on the tank in order to make a greater ooFSR gain, but of what value is that to a build that specialises on raid healing. Also remember that SoL is a 3 minute CD and its duration is short, so its relatively underpowered as a healing boost, mana regen mechanism.

Renew does not compete with SoL and guardian spirit since you have to take something at tier 1. I prefer healing prayers and throuput talents instead of SoL, because the gains from SoL are too small to justify jugling another proc in my view. Although you can get a decent return from SoL now that it does not consume clearcasting, you have to consider what you are NOT getting and how you need to modify your healing tactics to actually take advantage of SoL. I find that at lvl 70 its pointless to take SoL.

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